Posts by Andrew Sh

20

Are exJW's not entitled to quote or interpret scriptures in minds of Christians that were never JW's?

by tootired2care in

jw
friends

this is one that i've been struggling with since i started hanging out here.

when you get on a thread and quote a scripture with a comment to make a point, the believers who have never been jw's often knee jerk reaction jump all over it, and in essensce say that you cannot understand the passage because you are not a believer like them.. it's as if they are saying what is written and what you have learned about certain passages are automatically wrong just because you were taught from a jw perspective, or that you lack basic reading comprehension.

i agree many of the jw teachings are off, but i can certainly respect more of their interpretations of scriptures than i can of other christian denominations.

Andrew Sh

TooTired2care,

"JW's
He went through a lot of trouble to send his son here to create a legal framework for us to be reconciled. The JW's position is that God is allowing this for a time to give people a chance to repent before he destroys the worlds institutions and wicked (everyone that doesn't bow to him). There are many scriptures that support this (OT and NT) any translation.

Non JW's
Many Christians here ignore those texts; and believe that God is not going to remake this world, or that he is somehow going to use certain people to effect change, and this world will not be remade and billions will not be wiped out by God."

Speaking as a Trinitarian Christian, it looks as if the JW position quoted above is much closer to my view than the non JW "Christian" position above.... in fact everything quoted above as the JW position I agree with, and I would say is a Christain view (- though why not just say that everything will be destroyed rather than speak of "the world's institutions"?) As for the "Christian" position: it may be important to note that the Christian view of 'the afterlife for believers' is diffferent from the JW view. The Christian view includes:-

1 The moment a person dies their soul goes immediately to Heaven or Hell. (Luke 23:43 (Note: In NWT the comma is deliberately put in the wrong place: it shouldn't be "I tell you the truth today," but "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise"; Philippians 1:23)

2 At "Armageddon"/the Last Day of Judgement, our souls will receive back a resurrection body. I expect it will be recognizably similar to our current body. (It will be the same person you and me, not some different person, as seems to be taught by WTBTS.) So Heaven will, after the Day of Judgement, be a physical place. In that sense, the Christian Heaven is similar to the current physical world. I hope it can be seen that this physical Heaven can justifiably be called "a new heavens and a new earth". For a Christian, the idea of remaking the earth is not how he thinks of things after the Day of Judgement. There are important differences between the JW's idea of a future earthly life and the Evangelical Heaven: for a start, there will be no marriage, no sex, no child-bearing in the Evangelical Heaven. (Matthew 22:25-32): this is the future of all who have believed on the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. So the JW idea that the earth will be recreated and life will start again like in the garden of Eden without sin is not what I or Evangelicals believe.

29

The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.

by Andrew Sh in

i'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.

the format is thus:-.

1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.

Andrew Sh

Thanks BroMac :) - Those not in the know can google "Special One" and "Mourinho".

1 Corinthians 15:3-5

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures:and that he was buriednad that he rose again from the dead according to the scripptures, and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve. (KJV)

NEW NWT to follow....

29

The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.

by Andrew Sh in

i'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.

the format is thus:-.

1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.

Andrew Sh

1 Corinthians 11:24-26

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do ye in remembrance of me.

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come." (KJV)

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat; this is my body, which is broken for you: this do ye in remembrance of me, but only if you are in the 'Jose Mourinho Class', one of 'The Special Ones', and were alive in the right year (this is self-evidently so obvious, I know, but for the sake of clarity I remind you). The correct year, again obviously, can be ever-so-simply calculated by turning the DAYS in Daniel 8:14 into YEARS and adding this to an estimated year-date of the time when Ezra returned to Jerusalem after the captivity. Otherwise forget it. The same goes for drinking the cup. And if your not sure, forget it. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come or until all the Special Ones who were alive in that ever-so-easily calculated and obvious year have died out, depending on which comes first. And if you think I'm being too complicated then I will make sure you are disfellowshipped for being proud and unteachable." (NEW NWT)

22

Jesus told A lie, John 7:8-10

by jam in

did he tell his brothers a lie?.

john 7:8-10 (8) go to the feast yourselves; i am not.

going up to this feast for my time has not yet fully.

Andrew Sh

3 - I thought I saw a distinction between "these things" and "that day" but didn't comment on it. But now I have looked at Matthew Henry's Commentary where it says:-

"Here he instructs us as to the time of them, v34,35. As to this, it is well observed by the learned Grotius, that there is a manifest distinction made between the "tauta" of v34 and the "ekeinEs" of v36, between "these things" and "that day and hour"; which will help to clear this prophecy.

1) As to "these things", the wars, seductions, and persecutions, here foretold, and especially the ruin of the Jewish nation; this generation shall not pass away, till all these things be fulfilled v34; there are those now alive that shall see Jerusalem destroyed, and the Jewish church brought to an end. etc ...

2) But as to "that day and hour" which will be the last day, no man knows v36. Therefore take heed of confounding these two, as they did, who, from the words of Christ and the apostles' letters, inferred that the day of the Lord was at hand (2 Thess 2:2). No, it was not; "this generation" and many another "shall pass, before "that day and hour" come.

So much from Matthew Henry. From this I take it that:-

it is a mistake to infer from any current troubles that we are in special days, namely, to predict with certainty that the Day of the Lord is near.... an error (and a deliberate deceit, seeing as noone can know except the Father) that the WTS has been consistently guilty of throughout its relatively short existence.

22

Jesus told A lie, John 7:8-10

by jam in

did he tell his brothers a lie?.

john 7:8-10 (8) go to the feast yourselves; i am not.

going up to this feast for my time has not yet fully.

Andrew Sh

Glenster, Nice try, but let me have a go too.

I didn't understand this until I heard an explanation.

There are two things to appreciate first:-

1 - "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power" Acts 1:7. Essentially, we should always be ready for the Lord's return and the final Day of Judgement. It might come today or tomorrow, it is not for you to know, but you must always be ready whenever it comes. So I am not going to say it will not come for many years yet. If I were to tell you that then you might think to have a little holiday from holiness, and that might be fatal for you. Matthew 24:42-44.

2 - Look at Matthew 24:1-3, and you will see that the disciples make an incorrect assumption which the Lord does not fully correct (because of point 1 above(?)). They assume that when He talks of the destruction of the temple he is referring to the day of his coming, and of the end of the world.

"and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives [[overlooking the temple]] the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

So the Lord starts by telling them the temple is going to be destroyed. He is referring to what happened (surely) in AD70 when the temple was destroyed by the Romans. But the disciples jump to the conclusion that he is referring to the end of the world.

In Matthew 24:34 - "this generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" - he is perhaps telling them:-

1 - merely about what he was originally talking about, and what started the whole conversation in the first place: the destruction of the temple.

2 - But possibly, he is referring to more, he is saying the beginnings of the end times, with all the persecution, and the spread of the gospel worldwide, start around about the time of the destruction of the temple. This generation will witness the beginnings of the endtimes with the new way that God shall be working, not just amongst the Jewish people, but amongst all the peoples of the world. Indeed, the gospel did have great success in the early church, and the gospel was preached across the whole known world in short time, so we might say the gospel was preached in all the world before that generation passed: it witnessed a great work of God. Also, the great persecutions of Nero and others had already started, before the destruction of the temple.

But note, there is much that shall happen before the day of his return, and he said so. This generation shall witness at least the beginnings of the endtimes, but I shall not tell you exactly the day of my return.... it won't help you and it doesn't belong to you to know .... be always ready.

29

The NEW New World Translation. Suggestions please.

by Andrew Sh in

i'm hoping to produce a new new world translation of the bible and if you have any ideas i would appreciate your contributions.

the format is thus:-.

1. the book, chapter and verse.. 2. the king james version (authorised version) of the above in full.

Andrew Sh

Fernando, Brother,

No worries, its clear this thread ain't going to get overloaded, which is, of itself, perhaps, sadly telling you something (like "we're not interested in that book, period".)

I guess we'll just have to be satisfied with "quality, not quantity"?

Nice one. Thanks and keep them coming.

John 21:7

"Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord." (KJV)

"Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, 'Look! It is the Archangel Michael, who has commandeered the Lord's resurrected body!'" (NEW NWT).

20

Are exJW's not entitled to quote or interpret scriptures in minds of Christians that were never JW's?

by tootired2care in

jw
friends

this is one that i've been struggling with since i started hanging out here.

when you get on a thread and quote a scripture with a comment to make a point, the believers who have never been jw's often knee jerk reaction jump all over it, and in essensce say that you cannot understand the passage because you are not a believer like them.. it's as if they are saying what is written and what you have learned about certain passages are automatically wrong just because you were taught from a jw perspective, or that you lack basic reading comprehension.

i agree many of the jw teachings are off, but i can certainly respect more of their interpretations of scriptures than i can of other christian denominations.

Andrew Sh

TooTiredToCare,

In general, you might be surprised, I agree with you here. Saying "the Lord told me" is a cop out, and most of Scripture can be understood by anyone, provided its own rules of interpretation, comparing Scripture with Scripture, are followed. Inside knowledge is not offered, not valid, not needed, and risks the condemnation of Revelation 22:18,19.

There is a lot of wacky stuff out there in the churches today. They might be my brothers, but often its hard to tell. They seem to understand and believe in the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake, they seem to love the LORD, but, Oh, there are such a lot of strange ideas. The LORD is not ashamed to call them brothers (Heb 2:11), He is so generous and kind.

106

One Lord - One Savior : Get Used To It

by Perry in

jehovah in the old testament and jesus in the new testament are one and the same.. .

3. jehovah is salvation.

5. jehovah wants only himself to be worshipped.

Andrew Sh

Sweet Baby Cheesy,

Well, I have never seen it before. You would have to be very odd not to like it.

I have to think of a reply. Sorry it won't be as witty. But let me see. Maybe it will. Perhaps I will get my printer working and show it to my Pastor... he's got a quicker mind than me.

A few thoughts off the top of my head:-

1 - It supposes that there is no experience of God in this life, which is not true.

2 - It supposes that the Christian's experience of power over temptations by the doctrines of the gopsel is delusional... an impossibilty for the Christian to contemplate.

3 - It supposes that the answered prayers of a believer are all coincidental, again, an impossibility.

4 - It supposes that noone can have any certainty of the truth of the Bible: not true. Many, many martyrs, Polycarp, all the Christians who died in Circus Maximus, all those Pastors dying in the Nuclear Gulag of Communist USSR, and thousands upon thousands more. Were they all delusional? (I know many JWs have also suffered. But they suffered under threat of disfellowshipping, possibly losing friends and family, if they didn't tow the WTS line. No such disfellowshipping for all these. Some caved in to the pressure... they were forgiven by their Christian peers, upon repentance.)

5 - It paints a caricature of God which is utterly unlike the character of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was loving and kind, not a vindictive, threatening, bully. I cannot put my finger exactly on this at the moment, to hit home the difference, and hope to get a good counter-story later!!

6 - It supposes that the Bible is not inspired by God: because how could God be so unreasonable as our story shows? And, sure, our story is just the Bible message in a different form. But who else could have written the Bible? Bad men could never have written so good a book, and good men would never have said it were inspired by God if this were a lie.

7 - It supposes that you who reject Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible have a better idea of His character than those who embrace and love Him. I don't worship God out of fear of hell, or fear of punishment... those things might have helped bring me to God, and I'm thankful those truths were helpful in bringing me to him. But now I am free, and freely love God out of choice, not out of fear at all: perfect love casts out fear.

Must think of a better reply. Take care.

106

One Lord - One Savior : Get Used To It

by Perry in

jehovah in the old testament and jesus in the new testament are one and the same.. .

3. jehovah is salvation.

5. jehovah wants only himself to be worshipped.

Andrew Sh

Well, dear, oh dear, NewChapter,

You have some rather harsh words against me, though I've never aimed to hurt you at all, quite the contrary. I hope you will bear with me while I reply.

"First he must convince everyone that they are sinners" - Sorry, NewChapter, but you've got the wrong man, that is the work of the Holy Spirit, "When he comes (ie the Holy Spirit) he will convince the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement to come. Of sin, because they believe not on me. (John 16:8,9). And to be convinced of sin there must be some willingness to be convinced, "For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:20) It would be sad, though, to hear of people who are dying of a terrible disease to refuse to go to the doctor simply because they don't want to hear any bad news. What a tragedy when anyone prefers the comfort of their sins than the real comfort of deliverance from sin. It seems people choose not to believe on Christ because they want to hang on to sin, not because of intellectual reasons.

So I am a snake oil salesman? I looked this up in the dictionary:

"Snake oil - a product that has been proved to not live up to its marketing hype". Proved? But am I not right in saying that you haven't tried my Biblical Christianity, so how can you possibly know? You have no proof; you do not know. I have tried it, and proved it does work, so have many million others, including probably at least some of your grandparents, great grand parents and great great grandparents. (I am musing if you are, by your own reckoning, offspring of a long line of snake oil salesmen and saleswomen.) Do you not also imply I am making money out of this? After all, that is what salesmen do. But I haven't made a penny out of my Christianity, and nor am I seeking any from anyone on this site. ... in fact, quite the opposite, my beliefs cost me rather a lot of money and no small amount of time.

Many on this site have been conned by the snake oil salesmen of the Watchtower, selling their very dodgy false doctrines, and even been snake oil salesmen themselves. You might have been a snake oil salesman yourself in the past: I don't hold it against you; and am glad you have at least seen as much light as to get you out of the WTS. Perhaps for some time, when the light was dawning for you, you were promoting even what you knew to be a lie. I expect some have, and some on this site have admitted as much. If you did such I don't hold that against you either. But you say you are not a sinner, so I'm sure you didn't do such an unsavoury thing.

Please don't tar all Bible-based faiths with the same brush. Why do so many cults use the Bible as their main book (or at least pretend it is so)? Is it not simply because the Bible is clearly very different from any other book, even at least highly suggestive of being of divine origin? Why don't more cults start with the Qu'ran, or some book of the Hindu faith? The Bible is different, there are clear marks of its being from God. What am I driving at? One of the Bible-based faiths must be right. I believe that one to be classic Bible-believing Christianity.

"Be warned, I and others take it very seriously when someone comes here threatening people with hellfire." I must say I'm dumbfounded with this one. Can you please tell me why you have written this? Have I so much as mentioned hellfire, anywhere !! at all !! ?? Please show me the place. As for "threatening people", NewChapter, your fingers started overheating when you were typing this, surely they got carried away by themselves.

But do I believe in hellfire? Well, I don't know that I have been pushing that at all, here. I can't remember even mentioning it here. But I do believe it, the world would make no sense without it. How could a God of love allow all the wickedness against defenceless people, especially women and children, go forever unpunished? There is so much wickedness that will never be found out by men, but God knows. There is other wickedness that is found out, but false judges proclaim the wicked innocent, and the innocent they proclaim as guilty. Who could be happy to think that so much wickedness will never be punished, either here or hereafter??

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_wrath_of_god_2.html

And how could He allow people to go unpunished who just ignore the hand that feeds them day in and day out, week in, week out, year in year out? even rebelling against Him and hating Him, without any good cause?

So I have a sick version of God? Please tell me how my version of God differs from the version of God proclaimed in the Holy Scriptures and I promise you I will thank you and change my views immediately. I simply believe in the God who has it written in His Word "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36.

If that is a sick version of God for you then that is a great tragedy, because He is the true God, the one who is revealed in his Son who went about doing all those wonderful miracles of kindness and goodness, and offering pardon to anyone who simply turns back to him in faith and repentance. To say that He is not the Son of God, and that the Bible is not the Word of God, I think you have to really make a big effort of unbelief to arrive at either of these views.

Though you might not be interested in finding true religion and the forgiveness of sins there are others who do. I write hoping to be a small help to them.

106

One Lord - One Savior : Get Used To It

by Perry in

jehovah in the old testament and jesus in the new testament are one and the same.. .

3. jehovah is salvation.

5. jehovah wants only himself to be worshipped.

Andrew Sh

"Its dehumanising"

No, sin is dehumanising - when men want to take away their ability to reason by drunkeness.

When men will kill for a few pounds.

When men get a thrill out of injuring, torturing, killing, and will even video their crimes on their mobile phones to send to others.

These are the things which are dehumanising. Sin makes devils out of humans. Grovelling makes us fully human, because through the mercy that comes from repentance and faith comes joy, and from this comes power against sin, "for the joy of the Lord is your strength" Nehemiah 8:10.

"You are not a sinner and neither am I."- Cofty

Cofty,

To understand these things aright

This grand distinction should be known:

Though all are sinners in God's sight

There are but few so in their own.

To such as these our Lord was sent, (who feel their sinnership)

They're only sinners who repent.

"Get up off your knees and stop grovelling." - Cofty.

But, Cofty, I LIKE GROVELLING....

provided I mix it with a true faith in those words of Christ on the cross: "It is finished". The Greek, Tetelestai, means "Paid in full", and refers to a debt being fully paid off. When you have finished paying off the mortgage on a house and it is finally fully paid then the word is "Tetelestai"! If I have faith that Christ has paid the full price for all my sins, then I can grovel with confidence.

For a sinner to dislike grovelling is as unsuitable as for an owl to dislike or be afraid of the dark:

Grovelling is honest and reasonable, for what else should a sinner do? Deny he is a sinner? That is dishonest, a pretence, a facade.

Grovelling is safe: I am told that when a hurricane or tornado strikes the safest place is to keep as low to the ground as possible.. to lie prostrate on the ground. God's power is far above that of a tornado, and He asks us to humble ourselves, to repent of sin, to turn back to Him, and to believe on the Saviour for the forgivenesss of sins.

Grovelling brings fellowship with God: for how "can two walk together unless they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3). God's word says I am a sinner, so I cannot walk with God unless I agree with Him about this.

Grovelling brings joy. Yes, it does, and much joy, when mixed with faith in Christ's blood. No other joy like this joy: A full joy, a real joy, a joy needing no repentance, an eternal joy. Before I was converted repentance and grovelling were horrible, ugly words; now they are comforting, sweet, happy words. The bee even gets honey out of plants that sting.

Everyone will grovel sooner or later: the grovelling now (with faith in Christ's sacrifice) will bring God's mercy; the grovelling on the day of judgement will be far too late.

1. When Adam by transgression fell, and conscious, fled his Maker’s face,

Linked in clandestine league with hell, He ruined all his future race.

The seeds of evil once brought in, increased and filled the world with sin.

2. But lo! The Second Adam came, the serpent’s subtle head to bruise;

He cancels his malicious claim, and disappoints his devilish views;

Ransoms poor sinners with His blood, and brings the sinner back to God.

3. To understand these things aright, this grand distinction should be known:

Though all are sinners in God’s sight, there are but few so in their own.

To such as these our Lord was sent; they’re only sinners who repent.

4. What comfort can a Saviour bring to those who never felt their woe?

A sinner is a sacred thing; the Holy Ghost hath made him so.

New life from Him we must receive, before for sin we rightly grieve.

5. This faithful saying let us own, well worthy ‘tis to be believed,

That Christ into the world came down, that sinners might by Him be saved.

Sinners are high in His esteem, and sinners highly value Him.

by Joseph Hart.